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KUHT Productions presents, Houston Futures,

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a candid look at the country's fourth largest city, where it's been, where it is, where it's

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going, based on choices in its economy, education, environment, ethnicity, human needs,

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planning, government and decision making.

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How will the choices affect Houston's future?

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Dan Gifford/Mr. Gifford: I'm Dan Gifford and welcome to Houston Futures.

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Our focus on this edition will be education, a subject that probably inspires just about as

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much emotion as anybody can think about and, uh, talking about the welfare of their children.

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With us today to share some of their thoughts are Stephen Klineberg, Professor of Sociology at

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Rice University. Jack Matson, Associate Professor of Civil Engineering at the University of

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Houston. And Barton Smith, Chairman of the Department of Economics at the University of

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Houston. We'll be joining these gen, three gentlemen for their thoughts in just a moment.

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But first, the question that's on a few minds today.

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Is Houston's educational system adequate for the coming century?

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Woman 1: First Day.

Boy 1: Sound (Bluh luh luh luh/making sound with tongue)

Sound: (Children making noises in backgroung)

Narrator: Houston's public primary and secondary education system doesn't just mean Houston iIndependent

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School District. Houston's a sprawling commuter city that's outgrown the boundaries of HISD.

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Students in some parts of the city

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attend one of Harris County's 21 other school districts.

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Many of the other districts provide education for city residents

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that's said to exceed the quality received in the HISD system.

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The Spring Branch ISD, covering Houston's Westside Memorial section, produces some of the largest

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numbers of merit scholars in the United States.

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But Houston Independent School District provides the education and guidance for the bulk of the

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city's school age children.

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It's not only the largest district in Harris County, it's also the largest in the state, eighth

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largest in the country.

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That kind of size means it gets noticed.

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Sometimes the notice is positive, but more often, it hasn't been.

Man 1: Houston School

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Boards, in the 40s and 50s, were nationally known for their controversial debate between the

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conservatives and liberals. And in which they frequently fired Superintendents,

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and we had revolving doors.

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The reason why we hadn't heard this, for some time, for about 10 or 12 years was, that at one stage

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of the game, Houston hired a Superintendent who was a better politician than the school board

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members, and that was Billy Reagan.

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The 12 years that he was Superintendent, he took the play away from the school board, kept the

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attention, himself, on what he was doing. Within a year after he left and a full time educator,

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educator came in, Superintendent Raymond, who is not a politician, we immediately saw the old

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rivalries start to pop up again.

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So nothing has changed, except we don't have a Superintendent who is enough of a politician to

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keep the lid on these crazy school board members that we elect to office.

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Sound: (Door closing)

Narrator: The arrival of Joan Raymond, from Yonkers, New York, must have made her feel as if she stepped

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into a New York alley fight.

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Joan Raymond/Ms. Raymond: I think the descension of this last year has probably been as severe as any I have ever

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witnessed. 

Narator: Headlines of one school board member being slapped by another at the school board

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meeting, graced the front pages of the local papers recently.

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Miss Raymond was not pleased.

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Ms. Raymond: I have been in school administration for over 20 years, and I certainly witnessed some, some

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actions last year that I, I had never seen before, and I hope I never see again.

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Man 2: Do you think they'll start holding those in a boxing ring in the future?

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Fontel Castillo/Mr. Castillo: (Laughing) In the past, we have, uh, in the past I've been in school meetings where people actually got to

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slugging it out, and looks, though, as if we're going back to that, um, to that old style of, um, settling things, uh,

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the honorable way. 

Man 1: I think that, generally, the people who tend to get elected to school boards,

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are people who are not professional educators, not really interested in education, but are

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using it as ways to satisfy their ego and consider whether or not they're interested enough in

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politics to run for higher level public office.

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Sound: (Kids talking in background)

Narrator: Dissension or not, the push for a Texas Get Tough school policy that spawned the No Pass No Play

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philosophy, has focused new attention on just what students are learning in HISD Schools.

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Rene Zentner/Mr. Zentner: Well, I guess it's not only HISD, but one of the problems, it seems to me, that we have in Houston

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is the fact that we, because we have a very low tax base, and we glory in having a low tax base,

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we don't pay our teachers very much.

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Therefore, we don't get very good teachers.

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Therefore, we don't deliver a very high quality of education.

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Narrator: Some charge that academic standards have fallen to the point that it's endangered the city's

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future, making it unlikely that generations, to come, could be trained to fit into an

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increasingly technological world.

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Ethel Hankamer/Ms. Hanamer: Well, I think it's very substandard for a city of our size, and, um, I think that, um, it will help the

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city tremendously if we can help the young people who live here improve themselves.

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Narrator: It's also raise the question of whether poor school quality might hinder efforts to recruit

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companies and their employees to Houston.

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Peter Rica/Mr Rica: Many of my friends, that I have in California and in the Midwest, in the Northeast, have told me

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point blank, that even when they had economic opportunities are coming to Texas, and specifically

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to Houston, they refused. Because the educational level was so poor, uh, at the grammar school and

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high school level, that, that was the main deterrent of them coming to, uh, perhaps a better economic

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opportunity.

Narrator: Dr.

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Raymond's response has been to start her own, Get Tough policy. Students learn their lessons

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during school hours, or they stay after school hours to learn them.

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And if that isn't enough, well, there's always Saturday.

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Ms. Raymond: I don't believe that we are challenging our, our children anywhere near to the degree that they

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need to be. The, the bars isn't high enough.

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And it, even as I say that, I think we also have to recognize that, for some children, the bar is

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as high as it can go.

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We're keeping children in school today that would never even have gotten into the doors of an

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academic high school, years ago.

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Narrator: Dr. Raymond says she plans on failing students who don't attend. In addition to using publicity

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campaigns and community organizations to round up students who are absent, and to pressure

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parents of absent kids to see their children do attend.

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It's not that simple, of course.

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HISD is faced with a number of problems that plague other large inner city school districts. An

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increasing minority population,

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that's making the majority student enrollment Black, Hispanic and Asian. Raising problems of

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language and culture in the classroom. White flight to private schools, the suburbs and other

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Harris County school districts,

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that's accelerated the racial and ethnic composition in HISD. A 46 percent student turnover

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rate from red hopping.

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That's families moving from house to house, apartment to apartment, taking advantage of rent

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deals. And what many see as the most serious, the demise of the American family, forcing

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teachers into the role of parents and disciplinarians, at the expense of learning.

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Ms. Raymond: I think that, uh, we're driving teachers out there.

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They really are burned out.

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There's too much paperwork, there's too much accountability being asked of them.

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There's too much of a frustration level there.

Narrator: At the higher education sector,

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Rice University, the University of Houston, Houston Baptist University and Texas Southern

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University offer classes that are hopeful, trained minds for the future and attract the kind of

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academic expertise that will provide research and direction for the city's future.

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But will it be enough?

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Rice University is certainly tops in terms of academic credentials and performance required to

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get in, stay in and graduate.

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But it's a very small school.

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What kind of real impact can it have in the future?

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Unless it expands. And if it does expand, can it maintain the same level of quality?

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The University of Houston is the largest of the Houston located universities.

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It's raised its academic standards during recent years, but still suffers from a commuter

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college image. Does that image hurt recruitment of and retention of top teachers and students?

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Could more academic prestige have kept a Paul Chew from being wooed by the likes of the

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University of California?

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Texas Southern University had its origins as the Houston Colored Junior College.

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It's still a black university, with an open enrollment policy that some believe will have to

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change if it's going to gain credibility as an institution of higher learning.

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Mr. Zentner: That means putting resources in, into TSU.

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That means putting resources into the University of Houston, so that we will have the kind of a

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great university system like the great cities of the country do. That Boston has, that

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New York has, that Chicago has.

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That San Francisco has, that even Los Angeles has.

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Mr. Gifford: Back at Houston Futures, with Stephen Klineberg, Barton Smith and Jack Matson. As you heard,

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we closed out there talking about spending more money, which is something that seems to be in

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short supply in this part of the country at this time, um.

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Any thoughts on, is that the solution to the problems?

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Throw more money at it. Maybe we can get the printing presses going down the street?

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Dr. Klineberg: Well, it's like so many of these things, it's a necessary, but not sufficient basis for

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improvement. But it is striking that in every single area that we've looked at, in terms of the

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variety dimensions of Houston's future, we come back to education.

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We are in the process of transition into a very different kind of era.

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The basic neglect of, of education, and of the human quality of human of, in human resources in Houston and in Texas,

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was not a terribly serious problem in the old days. When the, aw, a strong right arm and a

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willingness to work hard could get you a pretty good job.

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Mr. Gifford: That's a good place to start. Let's, uh, if I could just ask all of you to, uh, take a shot of this.

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What was it that we needed in the past versus what we will need in the future?

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Barton? 

Mr. Smith: Well, I think you're dealing with a technological change that, uh, was almost unimaginable, uh,

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20, 30 years ago. A level of knowledge and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, uh, that, uh,

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just almost to run your household, let alone, conduct the affairs of a profession and a

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business. It's a time now where you can't escape the basic needs for, for mathematics.

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And also the basic needs for writing.

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I think as we went through the Sputnik Era, uh, our attention was at least, in part, turned to, uh, the

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sciences and the mathematics.

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And to some extent we lost we lost, we lost the ability to communicate.

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Communication is very important. As I see young people come to the university, from, um, high school.

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One of the, one of the real disappointments to me is the level of communication skills they

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have. We need to do a lot to improve that. Kind, taking the financial issue back a ways,

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I think there's another change that's occurred besides what we need to prepare our youth in the

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future. And that's the changes that has occurred in the labor market, that have drastically

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impacted education. 30 years ago,

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the opportunities for many people, uh, alternative opportunities in the labor market were limited,

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particularly women. And as we've made some progress, probably not enough in the minds of some,

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but as we've made some progress to open the labor market doors to women, we've increased the

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opportunities and alternatives that they have to professions such as teaching.

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We cannot expect to get quality teachers, today, with the opportunities that exist today, with

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the salaries that we pay today.

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It's as simple as that.

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The economics have changed.

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If I were to sit down independently and list the qualities that I would want for a teacher. And

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the skills that I'd want, I would want a teacher, to teach my children to have.

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And then I'd ask the question, and how much would I have to pay to get this teacher?

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It would not be twenty or twenty five thousand dollars a year. Cause the type of person I want

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in the classroom with my children, is someone that could earn easily forty or fifty thousand

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dollars a year. How do we compete that?

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Well, I mean, there's, there's only a certain degree to which the love of teaching is gonna

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carry you into the classroom as opposed to taking these alternative employments.

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Mr. Gifford: Weren't we kind of speaking of, of, in a way, apples and oranges here, certainly I believe Rochester,

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New York, and some of the, I think Maryland, some of the cities up there are, uh, out recruiting teachers.

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And I believe in Rochester, they're going to have a salary scale,

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it goes up to sixty, seventy thousand dollars in some cases, I suppose, with certainly the top, the very

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top people or people who been there for a while.

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But, is it, would it not be true that people who become educators are people who note, don't

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necessarily want to go into business in the sector, and the (recent??) same people who become nurses,

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librarians, that sort of thing, are not people who necessarily, uh, want to, are motivated by the

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same things that motivate somebody who goes into a business where you're making money.

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Mr. Smith: You know, more and more today, the people that are going into education, are people who cannot go

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into business. They can't go into the other professions.

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They just simply do not have the skills themselves.

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And those that, those that we get, in the teaching profession, that really have the skills and the

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knowhow, and the teaching skills and the love for children, they take it for about three or four

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years at the salaries that we're paying them.

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And, as was mentioned, the paperwork and other things that we have to impose upon them.

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And they say, I'm not gonna do this anymore.

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And they go on, and I've had, I've seen many, many people that have literally doubled their money,

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doubled their income, uh, by switching out of education. into a more profitable profession.

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Mr. Klineberg: It is important, though, I think, to pick up on what Dan was saying, that people do not go in,

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and you mention it to people, don't go into education for the money. But you've got families to

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support. You've got, you've, you've got the fundamental sense of, of how, to what, how much am I valued?

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— Mr. Smith: You have ultimate pressures that drive people out, is what you're, I believe.

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— Mr. Klineberg: And, and so it's not that people are looking, trying to make as much money as they can, they're in

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teaching because they love teaching, because they have enormous, uh, commitment to, to working with

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young people. But it isn't fair or, or doesn't make any sense to ask and expect of them, that

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they will stay in that kind of a job, with those sort of demands, with, with the degree of, uh,

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inadequacy of, of the resources that we make available to them.

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Mr. Smith: That separates Stephen from myself.

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Stephen is worth, is worried about fairness.

— Mr. Klineber: (Laughing)

— Mr. Smith: And, uh, and I'm worried about efficiency.

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And what I'm saying is that the salaries that we're paying teachers, today, you are not gonna

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get quality education.

Mr. Gifford: Well, it's a good line to draw between an economy,

— Everyone: (Laughing)

— Mr. Gifford: as a Sociologist, I suppose.

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Why don't we get an Environmentalist Engineer in here and see. Are you, are you with the

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efficiency side or on the, uh,

— Mr. Matson: Well.

— Mr. Gifford: social side?

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Mr. Matson: Let me kind of put, put it all together, as I see it.

— Mr. Gifford:  I think I see a fence straddling coming around.

— Everyone: (Laughing)

— Mr. Matson: Uh, Houston is

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going through an incredibly rapid change, at this moment, where, as society is from an industrial

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based economy, to what we call, a post-industrial age, where intellectual achievement is going to

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be, uh, spotlighted.

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The model cities we have to look at now, are Boston, and others, where there's a good university,

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government, industry interaction. And that there's a fostering of, of intellect, and ideas and

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creativity and innovation.

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While our city's been based on this mineral oil, uh, thing where a Pipefitter can get twenty dollars

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an hour and do fine.

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But, uh, the times have changed.

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And the problem is how do we drag Houston into this new post era?

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We have a new international era.

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We have students from all over the world here.

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We have incredible challenges here, but we don't have the priorities yet.

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Mr. Gifford: Well this would be analogous to what northern cities have, uh, faced for the past 10 years.

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Wouldn't, say if, the Rust Belt, somebody in Cleveland or Chicago or someplace, you had people

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who could go work in an auto factory or a pi, steel mill or something.

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And that was a skill then.

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And that's no longer needed or, is,

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is. Are we talking about the same thing?

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— Mr. Klineberg: That's exactly right.

— Mr. Gifford: And, is, is that applicable here?

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— Mr. Klineber: The jobs that are gona be, uh, one study showed that of high school students today, that average

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high school soon today is going to have four different job changes during his work career,

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including two career changes, that would be, not just a different job category, but a totally. We

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need people who, uh, not only have trainable and transferable skills, but who are retrained, and who

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are literate, and who can move and grow and, and, uh, acquire, and. Shorthand,

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I always think of is that the kind of skills that were needed, the kind of education that was

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needed to train Roustabout for his, for his job on an oil rig, is not the kind of training that's needed

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for a computer technician.

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Mr. Matson: You know, we have a 19th century education for moving into the 21st century.

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We have an education based on rogue memory, uh, based on antiquated skills.

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Uh, students, when they reach me, and I usually get em when they're seniors in college. I look

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out there and I say, is there any life out there?

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Speak to me. You know, they just want to be fed knowledge and regurgitate it.

— Mr. Gifford: Were you noticing the same

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thing that, uh, the others are noticing as far as writing skills, communication skills, uh, math,

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engineering skills?

Mr. Matson: Well, yes, uh, certainly I've seen a decrease in that.

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Uh, but I think the decreases that the student hasn't been emphasized as much as the administration

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or whatever. I mean, we saw on the, the insert how the school board has other priorities. It seems

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like the, the student and the whole process is shortchanged.

— Mr.Gifford: (Mm hm/ sound of agreement)

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Mr. Smith: Earlier today, we were talking about, uh, SAs, SAT scores as a kind of an indicator.

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And I think, uh, that, that represents kind of a reflection of, what I would call, mass education today.

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There's clearly, uh, a deep concern about education, and we, we want these indicators to tell us whether

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we're doing better or doing worse, and we turn to our SAT scores and so forth.

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And yet I think what Jack's talking about, uh, is a process where, that you're dealing with a, a

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whole person, you're dealing with education, that, uh, they know how to learn.

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They have a love of learning.

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Um, we got to get away from just teaching students facts. And that we need to move owar, towards teaching

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them how to learn. When I get these students at the undergraduate level, I'm not worried about

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filling their minds with a lot of facts that I want them to re, regurgitate back to me.

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I want them to know how to learn.

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And I hope to instill in them an appreciation of learning. Because, after all, education and more

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importantly, education in this new century that we're moving to, that, that education is

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education, that's got to be a continuing process until we die.

— Mr. Gifford: Lifelong.

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— Mr. Smith: And that wha, and, and so the best that we can really, as educators, provide for these people, is to teach

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them how to learn, how to make these moves, if they're gonna make four job moves in their

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lifetime. To give them the confidence and the skill to know how to learn new skills and to

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develop and evolve, uh, their educational base as their life progresses.

— Mr. Gifford: That brings up a question, when

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You're speaking about the SATs, though.

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That is the measure of where somebody is in their learning, their knowledge, and that, that is

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the measure, the yardstick that determines whether someone gets to go to school and what kind

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of school, and, uh, I believe that test really, uh, probably doesn't really measure the things you're

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talking about here. Does it? 

Mr. Klineber: It doesn't, it does a very bad job with it. Any, anything that is

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quantitative and gets numbers as a single measure of, of a, entire human mind and capacity is

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obviously terribly shortchanged.

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The other serious danger, with it, is so, I think Barton was getting to, is that if we force our

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teachers to just teach to the SAT, they're not gonna be able to offer the kind of education

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that can provide a level of learning and the, and the, those kinds of skills.

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On the other hand, the SATs do measure something, and it is enormously significant that, that

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Texan, Texas schoolchildren are 45th of 50 states, in their average, in their composite

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average SAT scores.

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Uh, Houston is one of the, is lowest, one of the lowest, uh, the HISD scores among the lowest of any of

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the major cities in Texas.

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— Mr. Gifford: Let me ask you a question. Are those figures skewed in any way, (and onward??), because of the large numbers, of say, in the urban

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areas that we would have here in Dallas, certainly in some other areas?

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And it raises another question to, you know.

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We were talking about, uh, the Spring Branch System having some of the largest numbers of merit

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scholars. And from evidence, that I have heard, decided to get yalls, uh, thoughts on this. Is that if

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you were above Katy Freeway, uh, you probably have more or less a situation,

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you might have in HISD or Alief or something of that sort.

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When you go into the areas that are below Katy Freeway, the more affluent areas of Memorial

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area, where you have the higher income, possible, possibly the better students, better families,

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that's where you're really getting the, the, uh, better scores.

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Are we talking about something very similar here in terms of this, 

— Mr. Klineberg: Well,

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— Mr. Gifford: this 45th in the country?

— Mr. Klineberg: To degree,

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I mean, we have some very good school systems.

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There is enormous inequality that's now just been, been determined to be unconstitutional.

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The degree of difference between the per pupil expenditures that the rich, uh, in the rich public

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school districts than in the poor public school districts.

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So there's gotta be some effort of equalization.

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But clearly, there are some very good schools and there are some very bad schools.

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And the average level of education, in the state, is far below what it needs to be, to prepare for,

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for, for, that 21st century.

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But there is a lot of inequality,

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obviously. It's tied into the, uh, to the property values that are the basis under which monies are

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raised for schools. 

Mr. Smith: Part of the problem with that statistic, however, is that we use that

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statistic as a measure of our educational achievement, whether the school district is doing

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well or not. And to a large extent, it represents the inequality of the input as opposed to the,

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to the inequality of the actual educational activity that was going on. Four years ago,

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my family moved to the Cypress Fairbanks School District. And the SAT scores in the Cypress

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Fairbanks School District are a lot higher than the SAT scores of HISD.

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But frankly, I miss, I miss HISD.

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Mr. Gifford: Why? 

Mr. Smith: I think there was an awful lot of innovative education going on in that school district.

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I thought there was more a sense of learning that, of teaching, the learning skills, and the

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skills of inquiry, and the skills of discovery, than I find now in Cypress

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Fairbanks. Uh, part of HISD's problems are, right now, horrendous problems that are associated with

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ethnicity, and associated with urbanization.

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Uh, HISD does represent our, our minority school district to some extent, and those challenges

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are severe. And as we look to the future, those, those challenges are not gonna go away,

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they're gonna be more challenging.

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But it doesn't necessarily reflect the fact that HISD is not, is doing a terrible job and

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that the suburban school districts are doing a great job.

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And so I think, again, that SA, SAT scores are very misleading guide to where, what we're doing

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now and where we should go in the future.

Mr. Gifford: Is the SAT scores, you say, it's still, uh, multiple

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choice. There are no, there's no free form writing or, that sort of thing?

Mr. Klineberg: Not when you're scoring

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give, giving scores to fifty thousand students.

Mr. Gifford: OK. Jack, any thought on this.

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Mr. Matson: Well, I think, again, getting back, we have to ask the question. What is the 21st

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Century gonna look like for the student who's who's in school now?

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And I think we've brought up some good ones.

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Number one, the changes that are gonna become more rapid, technology is going to become more

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important. Mathematics,

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Science, Communication is gonna be much more important.

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So what kind of student do we want?

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Well we want a student that's flexible.

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We have to ask, do we have the same kind of flexibility in our curriculum?

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How much structure is there in the curriculum versus, I'll call it chaos, that, you know, you

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start out in kindergarten, first and second grade, and it's great.

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But when you get to the third and fourth grade there, uh, they lose their creativity.

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And by the time they're graduated from high school or in college, it's somewhere hidden in

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there. But it's very hard to dig back out.

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And then when they graduate from college, their expectations are, that all they have to do is go

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look at a book for the answer.

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And they're shocked beyond imagination when they get on their job and they're expected to use

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their brain. So we lose a lot in that whole process.

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And there's the big question as to how can we revolutionize our education, and

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how quickly can we, to take into account this change that's happening to us right now?

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Mr. Gifford: One thing that, uh, I just want to throw out, for some comment on, um. I'm certainly, I'm sure you have all seen

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something of this in your teaching. There was the person who maybe is a good writer, has

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good verbal skills, but they can't look at a map and show you where Chicago is.

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They have no, uh, these facts that most of you, we would just assume, uh, people would have.

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How does that happen? It's almost the opposite of

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what Barton was saying about people who have facts but can't

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write, people who can conceptualize and

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write, but don't know any facts.

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Mr. Matson: You want it all.

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Mr. Smith: Well. But I think that, uh, you know. The question is, why does anyone wanna know where Chicago is?

— Everyone: (Laughing)

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— Mr. Smith: You know? But really, if, if an individual can know how to find out where Chicago is, that's what's

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really important, that there are millions of geographic locations in the world that has some

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interest. But it's an absolute waste of time to memorize where they all are.

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But if you know how to use the library, if you know how to use an atlas, if you know how to use

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the basic tools of knowledge, then the person is gonna be able to find out where Chicago is

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or where Bangladesh is.

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The problem that we have today is that we failed,

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we have failed to teach them the skills of how to find out on their own. How do you find out

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information? 

Mr. Klineberg: But it's not just the skills,

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it's the other point you're making too. The curiosity, the wanting to learn, the loving of learning,

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that makes one want to use those.

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Because it is, I think, you know, there's a new book by E.D. Hirsch called Cultural Literacy,

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that makes a fairly good point.

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If there is some basic fact, some basic understanding about the nature of the world, that, that

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content, that students do need to have, that every literate adult needs to have, just a part to, to

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participate in the process.

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And once you have those facts, you then want to have new facts and you want to keep learning.

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And it's, so we need both.

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We need both the efforts to teach information, and above all, efforts to teach process.

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Mr. Matson: But we should, we should ask the question.

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And every, every parent should ask the question, how much knowledge that the student is

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acquiring, could be put on a computer chip?

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And if practically all the knowledge is being derived that way, there's nothing wrong with our

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educational system. And that's basically what I see a lot of this kind of computer chip

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learning. I, I had a chance to review some high school textbooks over the weekend. And these

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were on environmental science, which is a pretty neat area, I think.

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And yet, they were written 

— Mr. Klineber: There's no prejudice.

— Mr. Matson: No prejudice whatsoever, but

— Everyone: (Laughing)

— Mr. Smith: Fascinating.

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they were, they were written in the most mortifying, boring manner.

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I don't know how they could take knowledge and write it so poorly, but they did.

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In this blandness, we get this passivity that, uh, just doesn't allow a student to inquire to, to

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show controversy.

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I mean, we've lost controversy in the classroom.

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I, I, there's an article in the paper, uh, recently about student protests on campus.

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I'm glad to see some student protests on campus again.

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— Mr. Gifford: Become a lost art.

— Mr. Matson: Yes.

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Where has it been? I mean, it's been a lost art for the last almost twenty years.

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Mr. Klineberg: Yeah. And the recognition that knowledge matters. To care about the learning, to care about, uh, the

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issues that, that are confronting the 21st century.

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— Mr. Gifford: What in part, I'm sorry Barton, go ahead.

Mr. Smith: I, I was just gonna say, that as a product of the Sputnik era, uh, I received a

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high school education for which a lot of national dollars was being pumped in for experimental

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education. And some of the exciting classes that I had, as a youngster, was mathematics and

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physics. I can remember a physics course where we weren't, we were not told certain formulas

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with regards to mass and acceleration, force. That we were given a whole set of experiments

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and we tried to discover these laws on our own.

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And that was exciting.

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And I not only end up, when, when you discover the laws yourself, you remember them, number one. But

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number two, you remember how fun it was, the process of learning and experimenting and

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obtaining knowledge.

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And I think that, somehow, we've gotten into the 80s and we've, we've, we've lost that type of

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flavor of education, perhaps because it is too expensive.

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But it is, it was a type of education,

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I think, that was very exciting.

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I wanted to make one final point, and that went back to the point about looking into the future.

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What the demands on our children are gonna be?

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And I, I thought about the, the, the demands over time.

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And I, I looked back at, at, at my grand parents era, and to have a elementary education was sufficient.

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To have a, uh, secondary education was impressive.

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To have a college education, was it. Uh, and then I look at my parents era, and an elementary

405
00:30:15.340 --> 00:30:20.710
education wasn't sufficient, you had to have a high school education to achieve anything.

406
00:30:21.250 --> 00:30:23.500
And it was important to have a college education.

407
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.750
And in my ear, now, we're just moving up.

408
00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:31.630
We're moving up to the point where a high school education doesn't buy you anything.

409
00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:36.150
You need a good high school education, and then you need to get at least a bachelor's degree.

410
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.440
And what's the world going to be like 20 years from now?

411
00:30:39.010 --> 00:30:40.020
20 years from now

412
00:30:40.030 --> 00:30:43.660
we're going to have to have a requirement to survive in this world as a Ph.D.,

413
00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:46.460
or some type of equivalent education.

414
00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:50.740
Mr. Gifford: Well, I think it also brings up a question is, what kind, what do the, uh, different certificates

415
00:30:50.740 --> 00:30:55.990
represent? I went through high school in the 60s and I can remember educators who supposedly

416
00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:59.920
had a lot of the balls saying that a high school education should not represent anything more

417
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:03.550
than somebody's body was physically present at a location for four years.

418
00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:09.170
And this was all tied in with the, uh, equal opportunity and the, uh, emerging black rights situation

419
00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:13.720
then. And of course, you've seen such examples, I'm sure, where you can go back and see a high school

420
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:20.350
tests from the turn of the century, which today's college graduates or advanced students could

421
00:31:20.350 --> 00:31:24.830
not pass, on writing, grammar, composition, arithmetic, things this word.

422
00:31:24.850 --> 00:31:26.560
What does that say? 

Mr. Smith: That's the risk.

423
00:31:26.560 --> 00:31:29.020
That is one of the risks of mass education.

424
00:31:29.410 --> 00:31:35.710
When you say we've got to educate everybody, there's going to be a tendency to bring the

425
00:31:35.710 --> 00:31:38.910
educational level down, to the everybody level.

426
00:31:39.850 --> 00:31:41.580
And, I mean, that's a fact of life.

427
00:31:41.590 --> 00:31:49.240
It's one for which it, it, I, we haven't faced in this country, let alone. here in Houston. Uh, face that, uh, issue

428
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:51.250
squirrelling or even come close to an answer.

429
00:31:51.790 --> 00:31:56.620
Mr. Klineberg: But we're beginning to, I mean, there's, we no longer just accept presence in the classroom for

430
00:31:56.620 --> 00:31:59.260
four years as a, uh, sufficient for a degree.

431
00:31:59.260 --> 00:32:02.590
There's now clear measures of, of competence that have to be demonstrated.

432
00:32:02.590 --> 00:32:05.680
And, and, uh, you know, I don't think we're gonna go to the Ph.D.

433
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:09.130
required for it, but what we are going to, what you were suggesting earlier, of the lifelong learning,

434
00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:12.730
in which the idea that you're going to the inoculation theory of education, that you can get

435
00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:16.630
it at age, by age 20, and then you've got it and you're taken care of for the rest of your

436
00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:20.200
life, so.

Mr. Gifford: Yeah, I thought by not (culation??) meant, we're going to come up with a way to poor it in

437
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:28.930

— Everyong: (Laughing)

— Mr. Gifford: Just, uh, give, uh, mainline it. Um, to get into the, into the practical aspects of this.

438
00:32:29.080 --> 00:32:30.980
How would you restructure things?

439
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:35.260
Any ideas on this as far as at the, uh, grade school level, high school level, and maybe up into the

440
00:32:35.260 --> 00:32:37.240
college level?

Mr. Klineberg: Yeah, I'm wary more on the other side.

441
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.300
We've been talking here about what does quality education mean?

442
00:32:40.300 --> 00:32:45.850
And I wary more about sheer literacy, simple acquisition of the skills that are necessary to

443
00:32:45.850 --> 00:32:53.740
function effectively, as a worker and as a citizen in the complex economic and, and, uh, technological

444
00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:55.360
world that is already upon us,

445
00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:57.340
and is going to become more so in the 21st century.

446
00:32:57.580 --> 00:33:03.370
And that has to do with, uh, real commitments in a way that we haven't done over the long haul for

447
00:33:03.370 --> 00:33:09.940
the next 20 years, of really working at, at the early years of schooling and improving those

448
00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:17.170
years, at, at upgrading the, the, uh, educational skills of teachers, as well as of, of learners. Of involving the

449
00:33:17.170 --> 00:33:21.790
business community. The business community is now coming to recognize that spending on, on

450
00:33:22.540 --> 00:33:24.310
education is not just social spending.

451
00:33:24.310 --> 00:33:27.640
It is a crucial investment in the economic future of the region.

452
00:33:27.850 --> 00:33:33.730
We are losing, as, as was pointed out in the, in the mini-documentary: The Beginning. We're losing crucial

453
00:33:34.060 --> 00:33:40.150
businesses and enterprises and scientists and, and technicians and scholars who ought to be coming

454
00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:45.400
to Houston. Are not coming because of the reputation, the quality of our education has given us.

455
00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:51.130
And so that, and then becomes it, one possibility is for businesses to adopt schools, as is being done

456
00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:56.800
in other, in other communities. For businesses to, to, to bring those, the kids, to give them tours of the

457
00:33:56.800 --> 00:33:59.460
companies, and let them see the kind of skills that are gonna be necessary.

458
00:33:59.800 --> 00:34:05.370
The, uh, you know, the, that I have a dream movement that's now going around the country in which you, in

459
00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:10.150
which you get a, businesses to get together and say to a group of sixth graders, if you

460
00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:14.920
guys can make it all the way through high school, we'll figure out a way to make sure that we,

461
00:34:15.040 --> 00:34:16.570
that you can pay for your college education.

462
00:34:16.930 --> 00:34:21.540
And that can change the whole sense, one has, of whether education is worth, is worth it.

463
00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:27.130
Mr. Gifford: Why are we saying that what's lacking here is a clear vision of what it is that we ought to be

464
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.930
doing to get to a certain place?

465
00:34:29.950 --> 00:34:34.590
Mr. Matson: Well, in a society like ours, we owe, a democracy always lacked clear vision.

466
00:34:35.020 --> 00:34:42.670
I think, uh, the more test is how many experiments are we running on the various types of education

467
00:34:42.670 --> 00:34:45.910
there are, or how homogeneous is that education?

468
00:34:45.910 --> 00:34:50.110
I think, to give HISD, uh, a pat on the back,

469
00:34:50.110 --> 00:34:52.720
I think the magnet school program was a huge success.

— Mr. Smith: I do too.

470
00:34:53.410 --> 00:34:57.640
— Mr. Matson: The problem is they stoped with the magnet school program. Where are the next test tubes, where are the

471
00:34:57.640 --> 00:34:58.810
next incubators.

472
00:34:58.810 --> 00:35:03.430
As far as how we innovate in the classroom, we haven't seen that lately.

473
00:35:03.430 --> 00:35:04.570
And that's a problem.

474
00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:06.440
But certainly the magnet school system was a,

475
00:35:06.610 --> 00:35:11.690
was a fantastic success.

Mr. Klineber: My, my kids went through that system, it's excellent education.

Mr. Smith: The

476
00:35:11.770 --> 00:35:17.180
magnet school system came about primarily as a program to avoid busing.

477
00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:21.680
So there was this external force that was, was making us be innovative.

478
00:35:21.700 --> 00:35:23.110
I agree with you 100 percent.

479
00:35:23.120 --> 00:35:24.760
I think that was an excellent program.

480
00:35:25.060 --> 00:35:27.130
And that's the type of education that I miss,

481
00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:30.790
now, for my children in this HISD.

Mr. Gifford: I have some other ideas.

482
00:35:30.790 --> 00:35:33.460
What could be, uh, done along those same lines?

483
00:35:34.180 --> 00:35:40.600
Not necessarily to avoid busing, but something along the I, do of magnet schools which would raise

484
00:35:40.600 --> 00:35:49.690
the educational levels. 

Mr. Smith: I think that there's got to be a broad conceptual change in our, in, in our minds

485
00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:51.750
with regards to what education is about.

486
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:56.380
And it goes back to something as simple as teaching with,  teaching something like American

487
00:35:56.380 --> 00:36:00.850
history. It's not an understanding that it really isn't

488
00:36:00.850 --> 00:36:07.600
so important, that we know everything that occurred in the Civil War. But that we know how

489
00:36:07.600 --> 00:36:13.750
to view history, that we understand that history is a story that's told by men, and that you can

490
00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:15.450
get different perspectives in history.

491
00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:22.360
I would much rather see my children read five or six different viewpoints on the civil war and

492
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:28.360
understand that, uh, that history is not a black and white thing, that you just don't pick up a

493
00:36:28.390 --> 00:36:30.280
American heritage text,

494
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:31.420
and here's the truth.

495
00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:41.440
I'd like to see my, my children debate history as well as debate the future. That requires, that

496
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:44.040
requires an intellectual change in the classroom.

497
00:36:44.500 --> 00:36:53.110
And I'm really convinced that it also requires the retention of a type of teacher who finds

498
00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:59.920
that exciting. And people, that people that find ideas exciting, people that can see through the

499
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:05.470
fluff and really get to the hard core, are people that do have opportunities elsewhere. And

500
00:37:05.470 --> 00:37:07.060
they're the hardest people to keep,

501
00:37:08.050 --> 00:37:13.390
as your teachers. I really feel very strongly that the bottom line is that we've got to, we've

502
00:37:13.390 --> 00:37:17.770
got to commit more resources to education, if we expect more out of education.

503
00:37:18.070 --> 00:37:19.990
Mr. Gifford: Let me just get some thoughts from you on this, uh,

504
00:37:20.350 --> 00:37:23.740
as far as retaining teachers, as you know, of course, one of the big problems.

505
00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:27.700
Fortunately, we haven't had as much of it here as other cities such as Los Angeles and New

506
00:37:27.700 --> 00:37:29.410
York, is violence in the schools.

507
00:37:30.160 --> 00:37:31.480
How do you balance that?

508
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:37.030
A person who comes into the school system , uh, from a good educational background, they want to help

509
00:37:37.030 --> 00:37:42.880
people and they want to share their knowledge with eager minds and they have to put up with

510
00:37:43.210 --> 00:37:47.020
gang fights and God knows what else going on in the schools.

511
00:37:47.590 --> 00:37:49.570
Mr. Klineber: Well, that's, again, part of what you were saying earlier,

512
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:52.840
what we've all been saying, and it was also clear in the mini-doc in the beginning, that the

513
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.230
clientele have changed.

514
00:37:54.390 --> 00:37:58.000
The family is no longer functioning the way that once was.

515
00:37:58.180 --> 00:38:04.570
The shift in the kind of the poverty level, the proportion of school kids who are now poor,

516
00:38:04.660 --> 00:38:08.440
below the poverty level has increased dramatically since 1970.

517
00:38:09.220 --> 00:38:14.110
60 percent of all first graders are going to spend some part of their lives before they reach

518
00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:15.520
the age of 18 with only one parent.

519
00:38:15.910 --> 00:38:21.490
And it's those sorts of problems that call on more resources, call on more creative thinking, uh,

520
00:38:22.870 --> 00:38:26.010
because, because these are our children and these are our future.

521
00:38:26.350 --> 00:38:33.040
And it does suggest that, that trying to save money in the short run, by, by not wanting to raise

522
00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:41.570
taxes is, of course, a classic example of unintelligent, not unpreventable economics in which

523
00:38:41.740 --> 00:38:42.840
is going to cost us a whole lot more.

524
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:44.710
— Mr. Gifford: Jack, any thoughts on this? I feel I'm ignoring you.

525
00:38:44.740 --> 00:38:47.410
Mr. Matson: No, I don't feel too ignored.

526
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:50.080
I'll add a couple more points, uh,

527
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:51.550
what Barton said.

528
00:38:51.670 --> 00:38:55.410
I just like to add that I think there needs to be a freedom to learn in the classroom that is

529
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.890
so structured, so stultifying, that there is, that there isn't the basic freedom there.

530
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:06.460
You hardly ever see any protest by high school students anymore on policies or anything.

531
00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:12.820
It's just, it's a regimented assembly line education bureaucracy 

— Mr. Klineberg: A bureaucracy that needs to get control.

532
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:18.310
— Mr. Matson: Yes, it's a bureaucracy that wants to control everything and wants to produce SAT scores

533
00:39:18.310 --> 00:39:24.280
or whatever. It's not oriented to what we're calling a discovery type, uh, education.

534
00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:32.350
Um, I think that, uh, the magnet school system has worked so well that it could, it could flourish in

535
00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:36.910
many different ways. For instance, you could have discovery schools where the education is

536
00:39:36.910 --> 00:39:43.750
nontraditional and, and they practice different modes of discovery, uh, things like this.

537
00:39:44.170 --> 00:39:48.610
I'm always one for pilot testing things.

— Mr. Klineberg: For options.

— Mr. Matson: For options.

538
00:39:48.610 --> 00:39:54.310
The more options and alternatives we have, the more creative, innovative things that are going

539
00:39:54.310 --> 00:39:56.500
to come out of our educational system.

540
00:39:56.500 --> 00:40:03.850
And, and in Houston, we have such a beautiful diversity in the, in the population, just in so

541
00:40:03.850 --> 00:40:06.420
many ways that they, that diversity helps in that sort

542
00:40:06.490 --> 00:40:13.120
of classroom. We have the basic essentials here to provide a really interesting education. But

543
00:40:13.120 --> 00:40:16.870
we're, we're leased or harnessed to that old way of thinking.

544
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:21.820
Mr. Smith: And part of the problem of implementing a program, such as that, is the problem that you just

545
00:40:21.820 --> 00:40:25.510
brought up. It's violence and crime, disruption in the classroom.

546
00:40:26.200 --> 00:40:31.700
And that, that's because our, our schools today are really put between a rock and a hard place.

547
00:40:32.080 --> 00:40:35.830
They're, they're asking to play many roles. Roles, in my opinion,

548
00:40:35.830 --> 00:40:37.050
they shouldn't have to play.

549
00:40:37.060 --> 00:40:41.140
And sometimes as a father, I find rules that I wish they wouldn't play.

550
00:40:41.830 --> 00:40:47.830
They feel a responsibility to these children in terms of teaching them, uh, manners and teaching

551
00:40:47.830 --> 00:40:53.290
them, uh, I had an educator, in the school district where we lived, tell me that they give kids

552
00:40:53.290 --> 00:40:55.300
homework because it'll keeps them off the street.

553
00:40:57.290 --> 00:41:04.210
Uh, but unfortunately, you know, to some extent, school districts are, uh, forced in that position, to

554
00:41:04.210 --> 00:41:06.700
have to be father and mother as well as a teacher.

555
00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:11.230
A lot of education, that young people get, is in the home.

556
00:41:11.950 --> 00:41:15.510
And unfortunately, a lot of that education's occurring today is inappropriate, and

557
00:41:15.730 --> 00:41:19.960
education's reinforcing bad habits and, and, and bad values.

558
00:41:21.370 --> 00:41:25.600
We impose that on our, on our, on our schools, that they have to teach values,

559
00:41:25.600 --> 00:41:26.950
they have to teach everything.

560
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.240
Plus the basic skills and the love of learning.

561
00:41:31.540 --> 00:41:36.250
The love of learning that I got was because of good teachers, stimulating teachers.

562
00:41:36.700 --> 00:41:38.320
But it was also because of parents.

563
00:41:38.710 --> 00:41:43.870
You know, I had parents that I had a father who only completed a high school education.

564
00:41:44.110 --> 00:41:49.390
He regretted every day of his life that he didn't, he wasn't able to get a college education.

565
00:41:49.690 --> 00:41:52.570
He wanted a college education for me more than anything else.

566
00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:54.460
He continued to learn.

567
00:41:54.490 --> 00:42:00.940
I had a, I had a feeling in that, in that home that learning was important. And it became in grained

568
00:42:00.940 --> 00:42:02.020
in my very being.

569
00:42:02.560 --> 00:42:09.430
And, uh, we put so much pressure on the, uh, in the classroom, for the darn teacher to have to teach everything, and

570
00:42:09.430 --> 00:42:11.290
to instill those values and everything.

571
00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:14.200
Mr. Klineberg: Part of it is the family has changed.

572
00:42:14.200 --> 00:42:16.180
The pressures on parents are much greater.

573
00:42:16.180 --> 00:42:23.800
You have the two, the two paycheck family, very few families can support, can, can, they can provide the kind

574
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:26.440
of support they need to their children with only one earner.

575
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:29.500
And so, inevitably, it's harder on parents.

576
00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:31.090
And schools do need to take up that slack.

577
00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:35.470
And, and, and but so do after class activitiesm and so do, so.

578
00:42:35.470 --> 00:42:40.660
It isn't just more money for the teachers, it seems to me, it's the entire community, and the

579
00:42:40.660 --> 00:42:44.770
business community, again, particularly recognizing their responsibility and their stake.

580
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:46.690
Mr. Gifford: If we have the demise of the American family,

581
00:42:46.690 --> 00:42:50.830
is this to say that the rest of it is really doomed until that foundation can be repaired?

582
00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:53.920
Jack, can you tell us?

Mr. Matson: What a question to ask (Laughing).

583
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:58.630
Mr. Gifford: And how, how

— Mr. Matson: I don't, I

— Mr. Smith: Can I cut in on this one?

— Mr. Matson: Yeah, I'd be happy you cut in on this one.

584
00:43:00.010 --> 00:43:06.400
Mr. Smith: Well, I think that, I think actually,

— Mr. Gifford: Bart passing

— Mr. Smith: I think there has been some innovative programs. Uh, the

585
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:13.390
programs that I believe it was in New York in which they had after our tutorials. And parents

586
00:43:13.390 --> 00:43:14.980
and children came together.

587
00:43:15.550 --> 00:43:20.950
And part of it was, uh, because of the particular environment that it was in, where the parents

588
00:43:20.950 --> 00:43:28.570
themselves had, uh, low education, but they came together and took classes together.

589
00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:34.660
And you, you developed, uh, not only a higher level of education achievement amongst parents, but an

590
00:43:34.660 --> 00:43:36.540
interaction between parents and children.

591
00:43:37.120 --> 00:43:41.320
There are a variety of things that we can do, uh, to help,

592
00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:44.380
I think, the American family survives some tough times.

593
00:43:44.380 --> 00:43:45.820
— Mr. Matson: These are, these are incubators.

594
00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:48.160
This is what we need to try all these different things.

595
00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:51.940
I'd like to, I'd like to move up from an advantage to higher education.

596
00:43:51.990 --> 00:43:54.310
You really haven't, haven't discussed it.

597
00:43:54.310 --> 00:43:56.860
And there are problems with higher education in Houston.

598
00:43:56.860 --> 00:44:01.000
We have some, some good, fine institutions here.

599
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:08.320
But I think if we examine Houston as a potentially great city, we need great universities in

600
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:09.520
this town.

601
00:44:09.670 --> 00:44:19.120
And the question is, uh, how to, how do we not only get there, but how do we

602
00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:26.350
involve the community, industry and government in higher education here in Houston?

603
00:44:26.350 --> 00:44:34.480
It's been my, uh, history that there hasn't been a great deal of involvement and interaction.

604
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.180
I think at University of Houston, we look to Washington.

605
00:44:37.180 --> 00:44:40.330
If we get grant money from Washington, that's gold.

606
00:44:40.340 --> 00:44:43.540
But if we just get it from the city, that's kind of dirty money.

607
00:44:43.540 --> 00:44:49.120
That is, there's this kind of attitude that we're competing with other universities. And where

608
00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:51.720
they get their money is where we should be getting ours.

609
00:44:51.730 --> 00:45:00.130
Other than a model of, of asking questions like, like in Boston, at M.I.T., uh, their faculty in

610
00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:05.740
their engineering school are graded on how many venture capital firms are they involved in. Or

611
00:45:05.830 --> 00:45:10.760
how many board of directors of startup companies are they involved in. These are the more

612
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:14.270
relevant criteria these days and how many papers do you deliver?

613
00:45:14.310 --> 00:45:15.430
How much money do have?

614
00:45:15.830 --> 00:45:18.370
— Mr. Gifford: One of you mentioned great, the term great university.

615
00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:21.490
How would you define that term?

616
00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:24.590
What is a great university versus an also ran university?

617
00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:27.510
Mr. Matson: Steve? (Laughing)

— Mr. Klineberg: Thanks a lot (Laughing).

618
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:30.510
It's a little bit far afield.

619
00:45:30.530 --> 00:45:35.720
We're not too far into that. But obviously a great university is one that that has entertains

620
00:45:36.140 --> 00:45:42.170
research at the highest levels that are at the cutting edge area that also is committed to

621
00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:48.410
undergraduate as well as graduate teaching and attracts and keeps the finest minds in the

622
00:45:48.410 --> 00:45:53.030
country so that people look to the University of Houston or the Rice University as a place

623
00:45:53.030 --> 00:45:56.150
where some of the most innovative and important thinking is going on.

624
00:45:56.330 --> 00:46:01.650
Mr. Gifford: As you're aware, probably one of the, uh, uh, (bar??) at some of the, at some of the great universities is of

625
00:46:01.670 --> 00:46:07.520
the great minds that are retained, have very little, uh, input into the minds who are there to

626
00:46:07.520 --> 00:46:12.230
learn. And because they are out getting money, writing papers and doing research, that's at

627
00:46:12.230 --> 00:46:17.360
such a high level that the average student never has much of a chance 

— Mr. Klineberg: And that, if that

628
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:21.320
happens to for too long, then it stops being a great university and it's clearly does become a

629
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:25.460
point. But I think more generally what we're saying is that people are beginning to understand,

630
00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:33.890
that the future of Houston, now, rests on support for really first rate research at these

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00:46:33.890 --> 00:46:37.430
universities and for that interface between research and commercialization.

632
00:46:37.770 --> 00:46:42.050
And there's a growing, you know, the fact that Paul (Chew??) has stayed here, and that there is now a

633
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superconductivity center that is at the forefront of that kind of research and its research on

634
00:46:47.630 --> 00:46:54.440
an area that may have enormous commercial applications. That's, that's where universities and

635
00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:59.060
cities are gonna shine and grow and in the 21st century, is in that interface between

636
00:46:59.270 --> 00:47:01.320
research and, and commercialization.

637
00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:03.110
Mr. Gifford: Barton, I think you were gonna jump in here or something.

638
00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:08.630
Mr. Smith: Well, I was gonna say that in previous sessions, that we've had here, we've talked about

639
00:47:08.630 --> 00:47:11.150
solutions for Houston and Houston's future.

640
00:47:11.150 --> 00:47:16.550
And I think one of the themes that we've come back to is that, wherever we go and whatever the

641
00:47:16.550 --> 00:47:20.840
solutions and directions we should take, it should match Houston's character.

642
00:47:20.990 --> 00:47:25.970
And it should be Houston specific that we shouldn't try to go out and clone ourselves as a, as a

643
00:47:25.970 --> 00:47:27.880
Boston or whatever.

644
00:47:28.520 --> 00:47:33.230
And I, and I believe that's really the case with regards to higher education, that when we, when we take

645
00:47:33.230 --> 00:47:38.990
a look at Rice and University of Houston, we shouldn't try to make ourselves in the image of any

646
00:47:38.990 --> 00:47:43.880
other great university, but we should see how we can really contribute to the community.

647
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And,

— Mr. Gifford: What would that mean here?

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00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:53.000
Mr. Smith: I think, I think that means, is that, we're sitting, and I'll speak for the University of Houston

649
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.520
right now. But I believe the University of Houston has, is it, is a threshold point.

650
00:47:58.790 --> 00:48:05.720
It has the capability of being one of the really great urban universities. That we, uh, are a

651
00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:06.770
commuter university,

652
00:48:06.770 --> 00:48:09.680
to a large extent. I think we probably will remain such.

653
00:48:10.040 --> 00:48:12.770
And that does not necessarily need to be a bad.

654
00:48:12.770 --> 00:48:17.720
We need to learn how to be the best commuting university, the best urban university that we

655
00:48:17.720 --> 00:48:25.460
possibly can. Uh, Marvin Barry, on our insert, was talking about, uh, lamenting how, uh,

656
00:48:27.260 --> 00:48:29.060
the school board was elected.

657
00:48:29.930 --> 00:48:33.980
You ought to have talked about how the Board of Regents at the University of Houston was

658
00:48:33.980 --> 00:48:42.500
chosen. Uh, you know, it's a, it's a, the process is worse. And it, and it leads, it leads to an organization, that

659
00:48:42.500 --> 00:48:47.490
really has no understanding of the educational progress and yet it's ruling the university.

660
00:48:48.080 --> 00:48:53.480
We need leadership at the University of Houston that can relate to the city of Houston.

661
00:48:54.260 --> 00:49:00.440
The downtown people I talk to are, are people that are frustrated that the University of Houston

662
00:49:00.620 --> 00:49:04.340
is not really a part of this new development process.

663
00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:06.800
We should be. We could be.

664
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We have the potential.

665
00:49:08.390 --> 00:49:13.790
The University of Houston is a great school, with a faculty that is really, a remarkably good

666
00:49:13.790 --> 00:49:21.230
quality faculty. We just haven't overcome the barrier yet. And really become a part of the city.

667
00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:25.760
Mr. Matson: Well, it's absolutely essential, I think, that there be that kind of interaction.

668
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:30.910
I don't think Houston will ever be a great city without that significant interaction.

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I, I was a graduate of Rice University, back in the old days, and, uh, Anne Rice, I would hide behind

670
00:49:37.610 --> 00:49:40.850
the cloistered walls (Laughing) and have a fine education.

671
00:49:40.850 --> 00:49:47.540
I don't know. Rice has, has had some significant interaction, I think, with

— Mr. Klineberg: And it's,

— Mr. Matson: (cloisternation??) 

— Mr. Klineberg: it's small, which

672
00:49:47.540 --> 00:49:50.090
is one of our problems. But it's, it's, uh, it's a jewel.

673
00:49:50.090 --> 00:49:54.980
And the other thing to keep in mind, in fact, is that of all the major cities in Texas, Houston

674
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is by far the best endowed, with universities and intellectual community.

675
00:49:59.870 --> 00:50:03.410
You've got the university, Texas, but it's in Austin and you've got Texas A&M,

676
00:50:03.410 --> 00:50:04.550
but it's in Bryant.

677
00:50:04.550 --> 00:50:05.870
If you look at what's in Dallas or what's

678
00:50:05.930 --> 00:50:13.100
in San Antonio, or what's in other major Texas cities, Houston is the city in Texas for the

679
00:50:13.100 --> 00:50:15.140
information age and for the knowledge economy.

680
00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:18.890
Mr. Gifford: What about Texas Southern University or Houston Baptist University?

681
00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:24.290
What part would they play in any of this?

Mr. Klineberg: That's important resources. Boston made it, not just because

682
00:50:24.290 --> 00:50:30.360
it's got Harvard and MIT, but it's got a wide variety of other universties

— Mr. Matson: Its got Northeastern and, uh,

— Mr. Klineberg: Boston College.

683
00:50:30.680 --> 00:50:38.150
— Mr. Gifford: In a previous programs here where, uh, Professor McCoy from over at TSU, who defended the open

684
00:50:38.150 --> 00:50:41.450
enrollment policy, uh, there. Is that something, you know, he's not here,

685
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:47.120
but is that something that would have to change, uh, to really upgrade that university in anyone's

686
00:50:47.120 --> 00:50:54.320
opinion? 

Mr. Smith: I think in the long run, what you do is you, is, is, you have an education plan. And a part of that

687
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:59.060
education plan is a decision with regard to specialization, and a role.

688
00:50:59.810 --> 00:51:06.260
And one of the roles is obviously, universities are going to have to play until we really get

689
00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:09.560
our act together at the primary and secondary level, is remedial.

690
00:51:10.490 --> 00:51:17.180
Part of the reason why we have a downtown campus, is to provide an education to people that need

691
00:51:17.180 --> 00:51:18.950
some help to get back on track.

692
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.790
Junior colleges, to some extent, play that role as well.

693
00:51:24.560 --> 00:51:30.980
Uh, but in the long run, what we want is that all of these educational institutions provide the

694
00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:33.150
best quality educations possible.

695
00:51:33.350 --> 00:51:40.280
It's clearly in our interest that, in my opinion, that TSU not remain simply a minority university,

696
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:48.850
but have well-defined goals with a, a well developed curriculum and a high quality faculty.

697
00:51:49.790 --> 00:51:53.180
We should not treat TSU just as a junior college.

698
00:51:53.930 --> 00:52:00.520
It needs to be on par with the rest of the, uh, institutions.

699
00:52:00.740 --> 00:52:04.700
I worry a little bit about kind of these second tier institutions.

700
00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:12.440
I can walk into a classroom, of juniors and seniors, and within two or three class periods at the

701
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:16.070
most I can identify typically junior college transfers.

702
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:23.120
Junior college, uh, students are taught for the most part by my graduate students.

703
00:52:23.810 --> 00:52:26.890
Their, their Master's Degree students, haven't even got their Master's Degree.

704
00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:31.540
They're working part time at Harris County Community College or junior colleges around.

705
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:36.120
We need to make sure that the whole program fits together.

706
00:52:36.140 --> 00:52:40.670
I'm not saying they're not, there's not a role for these because I believe strongly

— Mr. Gifford: Crucially.

— Mr. Smith: that the

707
00:52:40.670 --> 00:52:43.160
community colleges and the junior colleges have a role.

708
00:52:43.550 --> 00:52:50.240
But it's got to be part of a comprehensive plan of how those students then fit into Rice or to

709
00:52:50.240 --> 00:52:54.400
the University of Houston and get a full and complete education.

710
00:52:54.410 --> 00:52:56.020
And we're not doing that either.

711
00:52:56.210 --> 00:52:57.300
Mr. Gifford: We're in the last four minutes.

712
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:02.210
Let me just ask, uh, each of you, um, possibly, you've done some research on this, but. To what

713
00:53:02.210 --> 00:53:05.360
degree is this important to the community?

714
00:53:05.870 --> 00:53:12.800
And translate that into how much would people be willing to pay for the things we're talking

715
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:14.390
about? They're days we are talking about

716
00:53:14.390 --> 00:53:18.350
we have to put more resources into these universities and our school system.

717
00:53:18.350 --> 00:53:20.960
That means money. And we've got a shortage of that.

718
00:53:20.990 --> 00:53:25.100
Mr. Klineberg: That's the bottom line. And across the board, again, we can coming back to that, Houston has

719
00:53:25.100 --> 00:53:30.440
been proud of its, prided itself on the low tax, low spend philosophy, and it's no longer going to

720
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:32.180
work for us. 

— Mr. Gifford: Have you done any surveys on that?

721
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.160
Mr. Klineberg: We've done some, yeah, and there have been, of course, national polls, of a growing recognition on

722
00:53:37.160 --> 00:53:41.750
the part of Americans of the crucial importance of education. Growing tremendous concern about how

723
00:53:41.750 --> 00:53:46.910
far we of, our high school kids fall behind those of other nationalities with which, whom we compete.

724
00:53:46.910 --> 00:53:50.150
We have been proud in America of having the best education in the world.

725
00:53:50.150 --> 00:53:54.590
We no longer have that. And, uh, we did a survey a couple of years ago, in part, as one of our Houston

726
00:53:54.590 --> 00:54:00.110
area surveys, where we asked, uh, people's willingness to pay higher taxes if, uh, in order to improve the

727
00:54:00.110 --> 00:54:05.480
local school system. And uh, more people said yes to that than to any other issue on which we asked

728
00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:07.040
about raising, paying more taxes.

729
00:54:07.490 --> 00:54:09.500
So there is a clear understanding out there.

730
00:54:09.530 --> 00:54:14.060
Sixty nine percent, I think it was, that said, yes, if, if that's needed for the school system, I'm

731
00:54:14.060 --> 00:54:16.610
willing to pay higher taxes. Doesn't no one wants to pay higher taxes.

732
00:54:16.610 --> 00:54:21.020
But that's clearly a part of the vision and the, and the political work

733
00:54:21.020 --> 00:54:27.320
that's, that lies ahead.

Mr. Smith: One of the things that I think the Houston recession has done, is to get us to

734
00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:28.610
look at ourselves a little bit more.

735
00:54:28.630 --> 00:54:33.860
— Mr. Gifford: Exactly. 

Mr. Smith: And as we've looked at ourselves and also as we've looked at other people, look at us,

736
00:54:34.340 --> 00:54:42.080
I think we've begun to realize that, uh, education is clearly an important factor in bringing firms

737
00:54:42.500 --> 00:54:45.050
and individ, and households to the city.

738
00:54:45.830 --> 00:54:53.810
Firms simply use education as probably the easiest, simple catchall statistic with regards to,

739
00:54:53.900 --> 00:54:58.760
is this community a viable, in a, uh, 

— Mr. Klineberg: Place I'd like to be?

740
00:54:58.790 --> 00:55:05.720
Mr. Smith: Yes, that's right. And, uh, and, and we've learned that in the last three or four years.

741
00:55:05.850 --> 00:55:11.320
As we have had to struggle with economic development, that education is an important issue.

742
00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:13.330
Mr. Gifford: Jack, any parting shot?

743
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.370
Mr. Matson: Yes, again, Houston is at a crossroads.

744
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:24.090
We have a choice of either being beholden to the price of oil, for the rest of our history or

745
00:55:24.090 --> 00:55:29.670
breaking away from that and diversifying and making this a strong base of intellect, of

746
00:55:29.670 --> 00:55:32.520
knowledge, of achievement and innovation.

747
00:55:34.590 --> 00:55:37.200
Mr. Gifford: Well, gentlemen, I thank you all for being with us.

748
00:55:37.710 --> 00:55:41.400
This is. We didn't have the last word here, certainly.

749
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:46.680
But it's very interesting, Steve, what you mentioned on your, your studies, that this could

750
00:55:46.680 --> 00:55:50.240
be an area where we could be seeing some changing and attitudes coming down.

751
00:55:50.470 --> 00:55:51.810
Barton, I think you had one more comment.

752
00:55:51.810 --> 00:55:58.140
And, (Laughing).

Mr. Smith: I just, I feel like that we are going to make the right choices.

753
00:55:58.160 --> 00:56:01.130
I'm, I guess I've turned optimistic for this city.

— Everyone: (Laughing)

754
00:56:01.930 --> 00:56:05.170
Mr. Smith: I really do feel a

— Mr. Gifford: Sort of feels like the Vietnam era.

755
00:56:05.190 --> 00:56:06.480
I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Its coming towards us.

756
00:56:07.230 --> 00:56:13.770
— Mr. Smith: Well, I think, I think that, ironically, the Houston recession has done a lot of good for us. That this

757
00:56:13.770 --> 00:56:17.860
program may not have existed, had it not been for the Houston recession.

758
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.950
Mr. Gifford: Well, we're not going to exist if I don't get off the air.

Mr. Smith: Aw, OK. 

Everyone: (Laughing)

Mr. Gifford: Again,

759
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:26.130
I'd like to thank, uh, our guest, Stephen Klineberg, Barton Smith and Jack Matson for being with us.

760
00:56:26.130 --> 00:56:30.540
Next time, Houston Futures will take a look at Houston's environment. How it's doing and what

761
00:56:30.540 --> 00:56:32.280
it's going to be needing in the future.

762
00:56:32.640 --> 00:56:36.840
I'm Dan Gifford. Join us next time for the Environment on Houston Futures.

Sound: (Quick paced beat/futuristic/techno.)

763
00:57:22.290 --> 00:57:25.280
This has been a production of KUHT.

764
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For transcripts to Houston Futures, Education. Write to KUHT television, 4513

765
00:57:41.240 --> 00:57:45.560
Collen Boulevard, Houston, Texas, 77004.

766
00:57:46.310 --> 00:57:48.050
Please specify the show title.